TVO: THERE SURE ARE FAKES INTERVIEW

Transcript: There Sure Are (NORVAL MORRISSEAU) Fakes | Apr 19, 2023

HOST: 

Steve Paikin

GUEST:

Jonathan Sommer (Lawyer, Art Experts Canada -formerly Morrisseau Art Consulting)

GUEST:

Kevin Hearn (Musician, Member of the Barenaked Ladies)

Steve:

THE PAINTING WAS CALLED "SPIRIT ENERGY OF MOTHER EARTH." SAID TO BE THE WORK OF RENOWNED INDIGENOUS ARTIST NORVAL MORRISSEAU. IT WAS PURCHASED BY CANADIAN MUSICIAN KEVIN HEARN. BUT SEVERAL YEARS, A CIVIL LAWSUIT AND DOCUMENTARY LATER, EIGHT PEOPLE HAVE NOW BEEN CHARGED IN WHAT POLICE SAY IS AN ART FRAUD RING RESPONSIBLE FOR THOUSANDS OF FAKE PAINTINGS. WITH US NOW FOR MORE, IN SUTTON, QUEBEC, JONATHAN SOMMER, HE'S THE FOUNDING LAWYER AT SOMMER LAW. AND HERE IN OUR STUDIO, THE AFOREMENTIONED, KEVIN HEARN OF THE BARENAKED LADIES. AND AN ART AFICIONADO AS WELL. GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE. AND JONATHAN THANKS FOR JOINING US FROM THE PROVINCE OF QUEBEC. WE WANT TO START WITH A CLIP THAT THE POLICE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIS DOCUMENTARY HAD A HAND IN STIRRING UP SOME OF THEIR INTEREST IN LOOKING INTO THIS CASE, THE ART FORGERY RING AROUND NORVAL MORRISSEAU'S WORKS. THIS IS FROM "THERE ARE NO FAKES." OKAY, SHELDON, ROLL THE CLIP, PLEASE.

THERE ARE NO FAKES FILM CLIP PLAYS

Steve:

OKAY, KEVIN, TO YOU, FIRST. THOSE PAINTINGS WE SAW AT THE END, REAL NORVAL MORRISSESAU'S OR FAKES?

Kevin:

IN MY OPINION, THEY'RE FAKES.

Steve:

 IN YOUR OPINION. HOW DO WE KNOW ONE WAY OR THE OTHER?

Kevin:

THERE ARE RED FLAGS THAT JONATHAN AND I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON FOR YEARS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THEY ARE. AND, YOU KNOW, THAT ONE PAINTING THAT WAS SHOWN AT THE END THAT RANDY POTTER WAS SHOWING I'M GOING TO GUESS IT HAD A BLACK DRY BRUSH SIGNATURE ON THE BACK IN ENGLISH, WHICH WAS ONE OF THE RED FLAGS THAT YOU COULD LOOK FOR.

Steve:

THAT'S A TELL-TALE SIGN THAT THIS MAY NOT BE THE REAL ITEM.

Kevin:

YES. AND THERE WAS ONE ON THE BACK OF MY PAINTING THAT I PURCHASED.

Steve:

WHICH WAS A RED FLAG FOR YOU.

Kevin:

AT THE TIME I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.

Steve:

BUT IT BECAME THAT.

Kevin:

YES.

Steve:

JONATHAN, WE HEARD THE ART DEALER SAY THERE ARE NO FAKES. WHAT THE HECK DOES THAT MEAN?

Jonathan:

KEVIN AND I AND A GROUP OF PEOPLE WE WORK WITH HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SHOW THAT THERE ARE FAKES AND THAT'S BEEN THE CENTRAL ARGUMENT THAT KEVIN PAINTED ONE OF THOSE PAINTINGS BUT THAT THERE'S BEEN A PROLIFERATION OF FAKES FOR MANY YEARS. AND SO, THERE'S AN OPPOSITE FACTION AND JIM WHITE IN THAT CLIP IS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO WILL TELL YOU THAT THERE ARE NO FAKES. SO, IT'S JUST A COUNTER NARRATIVE.

Steve:

 KEVIN, WHAT TURNED YOU ON TO NORVAL'S WORK IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Kevin:

IT WAS THE COVER OF A BRUCE COCKBURN RECORD CALLED "DANCING IN THE DRAGON'S JAWS" THAT MY OLDER BROTHER HAD WHEN WE WERE TEENAGERS. THE WORK RESONATED WITH ME AND I WOULD OFTEN SEE IT OVER THE YEARS. AND I LOVED HIS WORK.

Steve:

YOU JUST DECIDED, I NEED TO HAVE SOME OF THAT.

Kevin:

WELL, I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO, YEAH. WHEN I BOUGHT MY FIRST HOUSE, YOU KNOW, AFTER -- WELL, IT WAS A LOFT. CONDO LOFT. BUT AFTER THE BAND HAD SOME SUCCESS, I WAS THINKING OF DECORATING. AND I THOUGHT I WOULD REALLY LOVE TO HAVE SOME OF HIS WORK ON MY WALL, IF I COULD.

Steve:

HOW MANY PICTURES OF HIS DO YOU THINK YOU PURCHASED ULTIMATELY?

Kevin:

THREE.

Steve:

THREE.

Kevin :

YEAH.

Steve:

ARE YOU SOMEWHAT CONVINCED THAT THEY'RE REAL OR NOT, ANY OF THEM?

Kevin:

OH, YEAH, TWO FOR SURE.

Steve:

 TWO ARE REAL.

Kevin:

YEAH. AND THE THIRD ONE WHICH IS THE ONE JONATHAN WAS MENTIONING, I LENT IT TO THE A.G.O. FOR A SHOW AND THEY TOOK IT DOWN. THEY PHONED ME AND SAID WE THINK THIS MIGHT BE A FAKE. AND SO I WENT BACK TO SEE JOE MCLEOD AT THE GALLERY WHERE I HAD PURCHASED IT AND HE SAID, WELL, KEVIN, WE HAD A CONVERSATION. BUT DURING THE CONVERSATION HE SAID KEVIN, CAN YOU POINT OUT ONE COURT CASE WHERE THEY'VE PROVEN THAT A PAINTING IS FAKE? AND THIS WAS KIND OF A NEW WORLD FOR ME SO I SAID NO. AND HE SAID WELL, THERE YOU GO. THERE ARE NO FAKES.

Steve:

THAT'S NOT VERY ENCOURAGING TO HEAR, I PRESUME.

Kevin says, NOT AT ALL.

Steve:

JONATHAN TELL US ABOUT THE BIG ARRESTS THAT WENT DOWN IN THUNDER BAY LAST MONTH.

Jonathan:

THERE WERE EIGHT PEOPLE ARRESTED. YOU CAN BREAK THEM DOWN INTO THREE GROUPS. WHAT THE POLICE ARE CALLING THE ORIGINAL GROUP. THAT'S A MAN NAMED DAVID VOSS AND HIS SPOUSE. AND THEN THERE'S ANOTHER GROUP RUN BY GARY LAMONT WHO APPEARS IN THAT DOCUMENTARY. HE IS A CONVICTED DRUG DEALER AND A SERIAL SEXUAL PREDATOR. AND HE IS BEING ACCUSED OF BEING IN CHARGE OF A SECOND COMPONENT OF THE ART FRAUD. AND HE WAS HELPED BY, ACCORDING TO THE POLICE, I GUESS BENJAMIN MORRISSEAU WHO IS THE NEPHEW OF NORVAL MORRISSEAU. AS WELL AS ANOTHER PAINTER, WHO ASSISTED IN MAKING THESE FAKES. AS WELL AS HIS WIFE. SO THAT'S THE SECOND PART OF IT. AND THEN THERE'S A TORONTO COMPONENT. JIM WHITE WHO YOU SAW IN THAT CLIP. AND PAUL BREMNAR WHO HOLDS HIMSELF OUT AS AN ART EXPERT AS WELL AS A GENTLEMAN BY THE NAME OF JEFF COWAN WHO IS FROM TORONTO.

Steve:

THESE CHARGES HAVE BEEN LAID. WHERE IN THE LEGAL JOURNEY ARE THINGS RIGHT NOW AND HOW LONG DO YOU ANTICIPATE IT WILL TAKE BEFORE THINGS FINISH?

Jonathan:

MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THE POLICE AND THE CROWN ARE VERY MUCH READY TO GO TO TRIAL AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. THEY'VE ELECTED TO PROCEED BY DIRECT INDICTMENT WHICH IS QUITE UNUSUAL. IT ESSENTIALLY IS A FASTER TO-TRIAL PROCEDURE THAT'S RESERVED FOR CASES WHERE THE CROWN FEELS THAT THEY HAVE AN EXTREMELY STRONG CASE. AND SO THAT'S THE PROCEDURE THAT'S BEING EMPLOYED RIGHT NOW. AS FOR WHEN WE'LL SEE A TRIAL, I DON'T KNOW. BUT I SURE HOPE WITHIN THE NEXT YEAR AND A HALF TO TWO YEARS.

Steve:

A YEAR AND A HALF TO TWO YEARS BEFORE WE SEE A TRIAL TAKE PLACE, IS THAT RIGHT?

Jonathan:

IT COULD BE THAT LONG. IF IT HAPPENS SOONER KEVIN AND I WILL BE VERY HAPPY ABOUT THAT.

Steve:

WHERE DO YOU THINK IT WILL TAKE PLACE, THE TRIAL?

Jonathan:

IN THUNDER BAY.

Steve turns to Kevin.

Steve:

DO YOU WANT TO GO TO THIS TRIAL?

Kevin:

 I MAY HAVE TO.

Steve:

TO TESTIFY?

Kevin:

AS A VICTIM, YES.

Steve:

ARE YOU READY TO SPEND A LOT OF TIME IN THUNDER BAY OVER THE NEXT YEAR AND A HALF?

Kevin:

 I LOVE THE SLEEPING GIANT.

Steve:

IT IS BEAUTIFUL. YOU HAVE DIVED INTO THE DEEP END OF THIS POOL AND IMMERSED YOURSELF IN THIS STORY. ARE YOU CONFIDENT THAT THEY'VE GOT CHARGES AGAINST ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ALLEGED TO HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THIS?

Kevin:

 I KNOW THEY'VE INTERVIEWED HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE. AND I FEEL THAT THEY HAVE A VERY CLEAR PERSPECTIVE.

Steve:

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

Kevin:

 I THINK THEY KNOW WHO ALL THE PEOPLE ARE INVOLVED. AND I BELIEVE SOME HAVE COOPERATED AND SOME HAVEN'T. AND I'M GRATEFUL FOR THE WORK THAT THEY'VE DONE.

Steve:

KEVIN, WHEN YOU BOUGHT THAT FIRST MORRISSEAU PAINTING, COULD YOU HAVE IMAGINED THE JOURNEY THAT IT HAS TAKEN YOU ON? THIS IS KIND OF CRAZY, ISN'T IT?

Kevin:

IT REALLY IS. I HAD NO IDEA. JONATHAN AND I KIND OF COMPARED THIS JOURNEY TO FIGHTING THE KRAKEN. ONE TENTACLE COMES UP AND YOU SLICE IT AND THEN THREE MORE COME UP. I HAD NO IDEA WHAT I WAS GETTING INTO. I JUST WANTED TO FIND OUT WHAT THE TRUTH WAS. AND I ENDED UP FILING A LAWSUIT AGAINST JOE MCLEOD. BUT I DIDN'T REALIZE HE WAS CONNECTED TO A HUGE NETWORK OF PEOPLE THAT WERE ALL ORGANIZED AND TRYING TO STOP ME FROM DOING THAT.

Steve:

NOW, JONATHAN, DO I HAVE THIS RIGHT? THERE IS AN ESTIMATE I HAVE READ THAT THERE COULD BE THOUSANDS OF FAKE MORRISSEAU PAINTINGS OUT THERE. IS THAT RIGHT?

Jonathan:

THE POLICE ESTIMATE IS THAT THERE ARE BETWEEN 4,500 AND 6,000 FAKES. I THINK IT COULD EVEN BE HIGHER THAN THAT.

Steve:

IN WHICH CASE NO ONE'S EVER GOING TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS. THAT'S A TO-DO LIST THAT'S A BIT LONG.

Jonathan:

THIS IS A CLASSIC PROBLEM WITH LARGE FRAUDS. THERE WAS A FRAUD IN THE 1950’S AND 60’S. STARTED IN THE 40’S WITH THE FORGING OF GROUP OF SEVEN PAINTINGS. AND JOHN GALANDRIA RECENTLY WROTE A BOOK ABOUT THIS CALLED THE GREAT CANADIAN ART FRAUD.

Steve:

HE WAS ON THIS PROGRAM TALKING ABOUT IT.

Jonathan:

AND HE TALKED ABOUT HOW THE POLICE WERE ABLE TO FIND A BUNCH OF THOSE FAKES BUT THEY ESTIMATE THAT THERE ARE LARGE NUMBERS OF FAKES THAT STILL EXIST IN THE MARKETPLACE. SO, THE WORK NEVER ENDS.

Steve:

THE WORK NEVER ENDS. KEVIN, DO YOU HAVE A SENSE OF WHAT THIS WHOLE SCANDAL HAS DONE TO NORVAL MORRISSEAU'S LEGACY AS, AFTER ALL, ONE OF THIS COUNTRY'S GREATEST EVER PAINTERS?

Kevin:

IT'S DAMAGED IT. BUT I BELIEVE THE WORK WE'RE DOING IS A GOOD STEP IN RESTORING THAT AND BUILDING IT BACK.

Steve:

HOW IMPORTANT IS THAT ASPECT OF ALL OF THIS TO YOU?

Kevin:

WELL, I ADMIRE HIM AS AN ARTIST. AND I CONSIDER MYSELF AN ARTIST. SO I FEEL I'M DOING SOMETHING FOR HIM IN THAT WAY.

Steve: DID YOU EVER MEET HIM?

Kevin:

I DIDN'T, NO.

Steve:

I BET YOU'D LOVED TO HAVE.

Kevin:

I WOULD HAVE.

Steve:

 HE DIED IN 2007.

Kevin:

YES, HE WAS IN TORONTO AND I MISSED HIM BY A FEW HOURS. HE VISITED. AND BUT NONETHELESS, I FEEL THE UNIVERSE SORT OF CALLED ON ME TO DO SOMETHING. AND SO, I'VE TRIED TO FOLLOW THROUGH AS BEST I COULD.

Steve:

THIS IS A BIT OF A MISSION FOR YOU RIGHT NOW.

Kevin:

YES. AND THE PEOPLE I MET ALONG THE WAY WHO HAVE BEEN EXPLOITED AND HURT BY THIS, IT MADE ME KEEP GOING.

Steve:

HOW WOULD YOU LIKE -- IF THIS IS A MISSION THAT GIVES YOUR LIFE PURPOSE RIGHT NOW AND I CAN SEE THAT IT DOES, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE THE MISSION TO END UP?

Kevin:

I FEEL IT'S VERY MUCH IN SYNC WITH THE WORK I WAS DOING WITH GORD DOWNEY ON THE SECRET PATH. AND IT'S RAISING AWARENESS, RAISING UNDERSTANDING OF HOW THE STORY IN RELATIONSHIP WITH INDIGENOUS PEOPLES AND THIS IS BY NO MEANS MY AREA OF EXPERTISE SO I'M TRYING TO MY BEST TO ARTICULATE IT. BUT HOPEFULLY UNDERSTANDING AND AWARENESS AND ACTION, RECONCILI-ACTION AND HEALING.

Steve:

 JONATHAN, I UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE GONE AS FAR AS TO CREATE A CONSULTING ARM OF YOUR LEGAL PRACTICE THAT FOCUSES ON THIS SPECIFIC ISSUE. TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS IN THIS MISSION ABOUT THIS.

Jonathan:

WELL, MY PRACTICE HAS BECOME DOMINATED BY ART FRAUD ISSUES. NOT JUST MORRISSEAU BUT OTHER ONES AS WELL. BUT I SAW THAT THERE WAS A REAL NEED FOR A SORT OF TRUSTWORTHY ORGANIZATION THAT COULD PROVIDE AUTHENTICATION. IT'S NOT REALLY PART OF MY LAW PRACTICE; IT'S A SEPARATE ENTITY CALLED ART EXPERTS CANADA (formerly Morrisseau Art Consulting). I PAIRED WITH THE MAN THAT I BELIEVE TO BE THE TOP EXPERT IN THE WORLD IN TERMS OF DETERMINING WHETHER OR NOT A MORRISSEAU IS FAKE OR NOT. AND HIS NAME IS JOHN ZEMANOVICH. I RUN THE BUSINESS BUT HE IS THE ONE WHO DOES THE INVESTIGATING AND DETERMINES WHETHER OR NOT THINGS ARE REAL.

Steve:

I MEAN, GIVEN THE SIZE OF THE PROBLEM THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH OUT THERE, DO YOU REALLY THINK YOU CAN MAKE A DENT IN THE ART FRAUD CAPERS THAT HAVE BEEN PLAGUING THIS INDUSTRY FOR A VERY LONG TIME NOW?

Jonathan:

 LIKE I SAID, IT'S AN ONGOING BATTLE. YOU CAN ONLY DO WHAT YOU CAN DO. AND YOU NEED THE COOPERATION, OF COURSE, OF COLLECTORS. AND THAT'S ONE OF THE HARDEST THINGS. BECAUSE THERE'S A POWERFUL PSYCHOLOGICAL DISINCENTIVE TO COLLECTORS GOING INTO COURT OR OTHERWISE PUBLICLY ARGUING THAT THEIR OWN COLLECTION IS WORTHLESS IN CERTAIN CASES. YOU NEED BRAVE PEOPLE. AND KEVIN IS A BRAVE PERSON. HE WAS WILLING TO PUT HIS WELL-ESTABLISHED REPUTATION ON THE LINE TO FIGHT THIS FIGHT. THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN VERY BRAVE. MAGGIE HATFIELD WAS ANOTHER LITIGANT IN THESE MATTERS. RITCHIE SINCLAIR WHO WAS THE APPRENTICE OF NORVAL MORRISSEAU, HE PUT HIS NECK OUT THERE. WE NEED BRAVE PEOPLE OUT THERE.

Kevin:

DALLAS.

Jonathan:

DALLAS THOMPSON, YES. AND AMANDA DALVY, AND TIM TATE. THESE ARE ALL PEOPLE WHO APPEAR IN THE FILM WHO ARE DIRECTLY INVOLVED OR CONNECTED WITH THE ART FRAUD AND THEY CAME FORWARD. THEY TOLD THE TRUTH. AT GREAT PERSONAL RISK. THESE ARE BRAVE, BRAVE PEOPLE. AND SO, FINDING THOSE PEOPLE ISN'T ALWAYS EASY. IT CAN TAKE YEARS, AS IT DID FOR US.

Steve:

KEVIN, HAS ALL OF THIS SOURED YOU ON WHAT OUGHT TO BE A JOYOUS EXPERIENCE? NAMELY, FALLING IN LOVE WITH A PIECE OF ART AND COLLECTING IT?

Kevin :

YOU KNOW, IT DID FOR A WHILE. AND I HAD TROUBLE EVEN GOING INTO ART MUSEUMS, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T ENJOY IT ANYMORE. BUT I'M FINDING THROUGH THE FRIENDSHIPS I MADE AND THROUGH THE PROCESS OF SORT OF RESTORING MY FAITH IN HUMANITY AND OUT OF THESE EXPERIENCES COMES A RICHER AND DEEPER BEAUTY.

Steve:

I SHOULD ASK THE FOLLOW UP, THEN WHICH IS: DO YOU EVER HAVE THOSE MOMENTS WHERE YOU WISH YOU'D NEVER BOUGHT THE PAINTING IN THE FIRST PLACE?

[Kevin chuckles]

Kevin:

SURE. BUT I -- YOU KNOW, I ROSE UP TO THE OCCASION AND I'M GLAD I DID.

Steve:

YOU'RE IN A STRANGE PLACE RIGHT NOW, AREN'T YOU?

Kevin:

I AM.

Steve:

IT'S KIND OF TAKEN OVER YOUR LIFE.

Kevin:

YOU MEAN HERE WITH YOU AT THIS ODD TABLE?

[Laughter]

Steve:

 I MEAN MORE METAPHYSICALLY.

Kevin:

BUT I HAVE THIS AMAZING HUMAN HERE, I'M GRATEFUL FOR YOUR FRIENDSHIP, JONATHAN.

Steve:

 THAT'S A BEAUTIFUL THING. I GUESS IF AT SOME POINT, IF YOU CAN CLEAN UP WHAT HAS BECOME A DISGRACEFUL FRAUDULENT SITUATION FOR DECADES IN THIS PROVINCE AND COUNTRY THAT'S A SERIOUS SOLID THAT YOU'LL HAVE DONE. SO THAT'S I PRESUME THAT'S A BIG MOTIVATING FACTOR IN ALL OF THIS.

Kevin:

 I JUST WANTED TO GET TO THE TRUTH. YOU KNOW, I'D BE HAPPY TO GET BACK TO MY MUSIC.

[Laughter]

Steve:

SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE ARTIST. YOU ARE ALL ABOUT THE TRUTH. THERE WE GO. I WANT TO THANK BOTH OF YOU FOR COMING ON TVO TONIGHT AND SHARING YOUR VIEWS ABOUT THIS. JONATHAN SOMMER OF SOMMER LAW AND MORRISSEAU ART CONSULTING (now known as Art Experts Canada) IN SUTTON, QUEBEC, AND KEVIN HEARN FROM THE BARENAKED LADIES HERE IN OUR STUDIO. GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, GUYS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

Kevin:

THANK YOU.

Jonathan:

 THANK YOU, STEVE.